Kaedrin 1210714971|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I've refrained from doing them so far as there are few we can easily do on the outside. Ones that could be done include the Thug from UA and the Marshal from the miniatures handbook.
nicethugbert 1210719114|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Binder, ToM, p. 9, that's one you will not find in the PRC.
Scout, I just had to say it.
Kaedrin 1210719636|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Tome of Magic is specialty magic systems so I won't be getting in to those. The PRC plans to do them, though I'm not really concerned with what they do/don't have (nor the PRG). :)
Scout is mostly easy but the ambush is slightly problematic.
nicethugbert 1210731881|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
But, skirmish is what they're all about. The rest is peripheral. Skirmish is what makes it play differently and work. Skirmish is what most ppl try to do with their dual wielding rogue builds, sort of.
Anonymous (60.49.237.34) 1210734054|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Is the Swashbuckler(CWar p11) a base class? Are these base classes and are they do-able:
1)Knight(PH2 p24)
2)Duskblade(PH2 p19)
3)Warmage(CArc p10)
And a definite yes to Scout and Marshal(this is the one melee class I'd most like to play) ;)
Kaedrin 1210737305|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Warmage: No, it's got it's own spellbook so it's not a good candidate to do (3 feats for each of the 5 spell levels, not bad but not good). The sudden abilities aren't possible and advanced learning isn't possible.
Knight: Very little of the class can be done because combat is buried in the engine, free actions aren't possible, the abilities don't exist in NWN1/2 in any form, and there aren't any events to intercept combat against an ally.
Duskblade: Very difficult. Their very low number of spells known makes the feat approach workable. The spell power is one that requires the spells used by the duskblade to be adjusted for a new spellresist check (maybe 20-25 spells, not that bad). Arcane channeling is very difficult as that is the touch spell imbued into a melee weapon. It could be done like Hideous Blow but hideous blow is rather… weak. Setting up the touch spells to work correctly for the melee hit is not trivial either.
Hexblade: Trivial except for Mettle which requires a rewrite of the saving throw routine for Will and all spells would have to be recompiled. Low priority due to this.
Swashbuckler: Draco had it in his class pack (LadyD has it now). It would need some cleanup before I put it in but it would be a low amount of work.
Skirmish in NWN1/2 is iffy. The PRC group did it by having the skirmish bonus added each round as long as you were the proper distance away from your location in the last round. That means at best you are going to get 1-2 attacks with the bonus damage and in NWN2 combats you are likely to get that just once per fight. This is why I kept pushing back and finally cut the Highland Stalker PrC.
Thug: Fighter with sneak attack instead of bonus feats. Low effort required.
steelfiredragon 1210754033|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
swashbuckler and ninja
kryvnus 1210771754|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
FYI, Thug variant and simple variant for fighter are different. Simple variant exchanges bonus feats for sneak attack, thug variant loses medium and heavy armor proficiency and the first bonus feat to gain more skill points per level more class skills. They also get Urban Tracking as a bonus feat choice but that is pointless in NWN 2 since Track works everywhere.
Kaedrin 1210771957|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
For the Thug I'd put it in as the light-armored fighter with sneak (Thug + variant) to make it distinct enough to be worthwhile. +2/level skills in NWN2 for a fighter aren't really worth giving up the bonus feats.
kryvnus 1210772594|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
The simple variant does not lose armor proficiency. They just switch sneak attack for bonus feats which is pretty much an even trade. But then I guess I would prefer to have the simple rogue variant which switches sneak attack for the bonus feats. The goal for me is to have an extremely flexible class which high skill points and bonus feats provide. Though I understand where you are coming from.
Yume-kun 1210772764|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Yay for the Marshal :-D
Kaedrin 1210773294|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
The problem I have is a limitation on how many classes.2da slots I have available. With the PrCs I have planned that I intend to do I'm uncomfortably close to my limit. I don't have a slots available for base classes. I could do both but that's going to cut something else. It's also not very distinctive compared some of the other choices I could put in. The Thug + Sneak variant would give a sturdier, sneaky bastage that gives up rogue bonus feats for the higher bab, health, and access to the weapon spec feats.
I'll take another look at my list and see just how much room I have. I gave Bouncy Rock one slot for the Drider prc and I'm planning on giving the Rogue Dao folks 15 slots for their PrCs (so I can integrate theirs into mine as they are including support for mine).
The only other alternative I have would be to ignore the reserverations which is a road I really don't want to go down.
Anonymous (222.164.89.150) 1210774482|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
On a side note, is it possible to grant Favoured Souls wings at 17th level instead of the pointless 3x haste?
Kaedrin 1210775864|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Short of integrating a hak pack done to add wings for all races, no. Before I did something like that I'd check with all the PWs and see what they thing. Wings are… flaky at best.
Why is the haste worthless? Haste in and of itself is good and having it available for 3 free casts a day is much better than a graphical upgrade.
Kaedrin 1210775990|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
The Thug mentioned here: http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#thug (I'll check the real UA this weekend) is limited to Light Armor only.
So the thug gains 2 class skills (Bluff, Sleight of Hand), +2 skill points/level, loses one bonus feat, and medium/heavy armor. The simple variant mentions it can be combined which is why I was thinking of merging the two.
Anonymous (222.164.89.150) 1210776192|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
The wing feat gives you 20% increased speed, which is much better than a haste spell that your wizard would be casting a persistent version of.
kryvnus 1210777705|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Is it possible to implement sneak attack as a selectable feat for them? Then if you merged the two you would end up with something like this:
Thug (or whatever it would be after this):
BaB: High
Saves: Fortitude High
Skills: 4+Int/level
Class Skills: Fighter with Bluff and Sleight of Hand
Weapon Proficiency: Martial
Armor Proficiency: Light
Bonus Feats: At every even numbered level the Thug may select a bonus feat from the fighter feat list. Levels in thug count as levels in fighter for purposes of qualifying for feats. The Thug may choose to add +1d6 sneak attack instead of taking a bonus feat.
I might also suggest throwing diplomacy or appraise on the class skill list to make up for the lack of availability of gather information and urban tracking.
And as for wings… in a game where you cant fly they seem a little bit lame. Though I understand your gripe about haste, the game developers had to balance the abilities to make up for the loss of flight, which is extremely important to the class tactically.
Kaedrin 1210779822|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Sneak progression is supposed to be 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, etc and not 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20. Since they get the same amount that's a workable approach. It would give them the choice how much sneak vs normal feats they get. Since the simple variant doesn't have any other additions or losses that seems a good compromise.
Urban tracking is iffy. I could add track to the fighter bonus feat list but it will apply all the time.
Gather Information as diplomacy for a fighter (especially a "thug") doesn't seem right. Gather Info seems more like Lore which everyone gets in NWN2.
Edit: Appraise seems a good replacement for Gather Info.
kryvnus 1210784046|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I concure with the diplomacy not fitting. Since the variant loses one bonus fighter feat anyway it may be fine to just put the bonus feats at all odd numbered levels if that is the way you want to do it. Overall I think that the setup is reasonably balanced compared to either the fighter or the rogue and provides for much more customization. Thanks for going over this with me Kaedrin. I think this would make a good addition to the pack. BTW how many slots are there for classes?
Yume-kun 1210786004|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
There's a hard limit of 255 classes in the 2da files - apparently a legacy inheritance from NWN1 - which cannot be coded around.
nicethugbert 1210806645|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
If ppl like NW9, Dread Commando, et. al. for the high bab/sneak attack combo then they will luv the Thug. Too bad it doesn't have a more meaningful name. Too bad we or OEI didn't think of this sooner. It would have happily replaced a bunch of classes. It would also make a good mix with duelist, AT, warlock, assasin, avenger, BFZ.
nicethugbert 1210811233|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Incidentally, you could use Thug as a pre-req for sneak attack. Make the fighter take it at level one and grant it to rogues at level 1. But, there is PnP. Unless you make a passive/dummy feat, called Rogue for instance, and assign it to the rogue at level 1. Then you don't have to add Thug to rogues thereby sliding off the PnP path.
Kaedrin 1210812032|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
The Thug will have it's own bonus feats table so sneak attack being in it isn't an issue. Neither the Fighter nor Rogue will be affected by the Thug. I was tempted to call the class Enforcer, Bravo, or Marauder. Thug is a bit low-rent. :P
Due to the way 2das work I can't have either the rogue or the fighter have anything to do with the thug. It has to be a unique classes.2da entry (to get skills, which tables, etc).
Yume-kun 1210834961|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
How about calling the class "Urban Mercenary" instead of "Thug" ? :D
Edit: another term that came to mind 5 seconds after posting: "Sellsword"
Anonymous (60.49.237.34) 1210840664|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
"Sellsword" sounds pretty ace. "Bravo" is just too garish.
nicethugbert 1210845350|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Let's call him Ace. Hehehe
nicethugbert 1210849351|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
How about Gestalt classes?
Kaedrin 1210864093|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
It's not possible to build in choices to the classes.2da file. So no choosing which are your high saves, skill points, etc. Gestalts just aren't possible.
nicethugbert 1210867872|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
How far can one go with bonuses? For instance, make a class with all low saves and bring the saves upto the proper level with a class feat. Can Divine Power's code be used to get the right BAB?
Kaedrin 1210868750|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Sure, but there are too many core things wrong that can't be fixed like I said. Skill points, which skills are class skills, no way to qualify for fighter only feats because it's not a fighter, bonus feats are supposed to be from the entire set of feats or class abilities.
Anonymous (222.164.80.42) 1210928903|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I would prefer the usable 20% speed boost from wings, rather than the pointless haste. A cleric is already MUCh better when you factor in domains, especially a persistent divine power.
Yume-kun 1210935885|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Truth be told, a permanent movement speed boost in NWN2 is a pain. Companions (both NPC and animal) already have a very poor follow/track algorithm, (in general group cohesion processing is just frustrating; nevermind locations or scenes with a lot of movement/LoS restrictions such as cluttered interiors!) and the ability to outrun them just leads to more trouble, as they try to keep up, fail horribly, and fall further and further behind bumping into one another.
And as for a cleric's superiority, you might want to consider that metamagic in NWN2 is MUCH more usable and versatile with spontaneous casters (such as the sorcerer, bard, spirit shaman and the favored soul) than it is for prepared casters.
Kunikos 1211043860|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
There's already a mod on NWVault to let you spawn an item that sits in your cloak slot and is enchantable but adds wings to your character and the Winged feat. There are red winged, angel winged, and bat-winged variants.
Kunikos 1211043970|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I don't really see the need to add any more base classes until Obsidian adds a way to put in custom spellbooks. Wu jen would be great.
Yume-kun 1211045077|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Well now, isn't it fortunate there's a lot more to base classes than just more variations of spellcasters ? :D
nicethugbert 1211295457|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
New name for Thug class, Precision Striker. Or Feinting Flanker?
I've had an idea for a while that I never finished about feint. A feat to allow defensive use of feint. I could never decide if it should be a passive permanent AC boost like tumble, maybe synergistic with it. Or, an active feat like Feint.
Kaedrin 1211296688|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I'm leaning on Marauder as a name at the moment for the Thug.
I had a post a while back on the NWN2 forums about custom feats that give bonuses based on skills. Such as a +1 damage per 10 points of Survival, etc. I'll try to find the post on the forums when I get home and repost it here for commentary.
kryvnus 1211302145|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Those feats sound like a good idea and I think Marauder is a good name. I'd like to see bonuses to DCs for schools of magic from skills. Such as + to illusion from bluff or + to enchantment from diplomacy. Possibly even +1 sneak attack damage from sleight of hand? BTW, I think for every 8 ranks would be better than 10. You are spending a feat for it and a precedent has been set for automatics at 10. Spending a feat should get you a better exchange rate (but not too much better). Allows the epic 30 levelers get a booming +4 rather than a measley +3. And cross class epic would be able to get up to +2 at least.
nicethugbert 1211303417|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Marauder sounds good but I don't think it fits such a general class.
A marauder is a member of one of the sides of a war raiding for pillage, or roving around carrying out violent attacks. While "marauder" is most often used in the context of war, there is no clear-cut division between it and "robber", and in many contexts the two can be regarded as synonymous.
It would require an alignment restriction to fit the definition. I don't think that's justified for a class that is something like an IB or rogue which have no alignment restriction and could easily be marauders.
EDIT:
How about Striker?
You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Lucky Striker? Flat-footer? Lethal Flanker? Feinter? Feint Fury? Feint Striker? Feint Footer? Surgical Striker? Vital Striker? Opportune Striker?
Anyway, here's a source.
Yume-kun 1211304464|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I still vote for "Sellsword" :D
nicethugbert 1211305401|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
But sellsword doesn't describe the class any better than marauder. Paladin/Sellsword, Paladin/Marauder?
Yume-kun 1211305823|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Eh, it was more or less meant in jest; plus, I think it's going to be infernally hard to find a term that accurately fits. Sellsword, Marauder, Thug, Arm-Breaker, Alleybasher, Street Brawler … it all works, it all comes down to the same thing, not ?
Nevertheless, I will be pleased to see some more base choices in NWN2.
kryvnus 1211312410|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Call it the… INFINITE PROBABILITY WARRIOR!
nicethugbert 1211330775|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
lol, I see dice on his cape. Ok, call it Clay Dice.
Kaedrin 1211384482|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=622063&forum=109
That's the post I made about making existing skills more useful.
Anonymous (12.24.60.12) 1211585682|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I like those ideas, Kaedrin. You could take those a step further and add in ones that require the previous one. A War-shout spell-like ability for Intimidate, Charm Person for Diplomacy, etc.
— Kunikos
Kaedrin 1211595819|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
I'd probably do that with the Skill Focus feats later. Depends as I'll be running that by the PW folks first to make sure it's not going to screw up balance too much. Messing with existing feats is harder for PWs to block out than my custom stuff (since core stuff is buried all through the 2da and my stuff is always clustered).
