Your issues with a base class
Forum » Forum discussion / Custom Content » Your issues with a base class
started by: KaedrinKaedrin
on: 1214312741|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
number of posts: 27
rss icon RSS: new posts
summary:
Looking for feedback.
Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214312742|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'd like to hear which base classes seem to need the most "help" and what their biggest problems are. An example would be no good prcs for barbarians, fighters are boring to play due to not having any special abilities, etc.

I'm NOT looking for ways to make base classes "stronger" really. I'm looking for ways to shore up classes that might need it. This is going to be a long term project.

An example of what I'm thinking of to "help" fighters/barbs is to give them some of the feats that inflict special conditions and some blade magic (stone dragon through the martial training line). This will give them tactical options in combat instead of clicking a target and watching the show.

Paladins will get their alternate class abilities and access to some blade magic (devoted spirit through the martial training line).

Eventually I would like to add a handful of blade magic for all of those that engage in melee. Shadow Hand for Rogues and Rangers.

last edited on 1214316854|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more
unfold Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214312742|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
DJ_DocDJ_Doc 1214316135|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well Warlock, but you are already on it and I fully agree with barbs and fighters :-)

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by DJ_DocDJ_Doc, 1214316135|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Yume-kunYume-kun 1214319865|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

- Favored Soul/Spirit Shaman: Both very multi-ability dependent; must choose either high level spells with crap DC's, or give up high level spells for moderate to good DC's of utility low/mid level spells.

- Fighters actually have an abundance of options thanks to their enhanced feat selection, the only problem being that the options offered are boring
More unique attack options (tactical maneuvers perhaps ?) might indeed help.
Some "flavored" PrC's with unique options would be a good addition - FB, WM and Divine Champion get tedious after a while.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Yume-kunYume-kun, 1214319865|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
nicethugbertnicethugbert 1214321890|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Too Much Effort Required or Impossible:
Monk {Although, I wonder if blade magic, incarnum, or something general could help them out. Besides, Insightful Strike will help them LOTS.}

Already Schedualed for Lots of Help:
Druids, Warlocks, Paladins, Bards, Wizards/Sorcerors(Reserved Feats and Spells)

Needing Attention?
Rangers, Barbarians, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul.

The problem with barbarians is that conceptually they are just another variation of fighter. So, who needs them? Just play a fighter. Also, Rage is made useless by the +12 Ability Cap. For barbarians I recommend NTB's Frenzy Barb 05.14.2008. It will make them more themselves and on par with fighters. Champion Of Gwynharwyf and Runescarred Berserker make barbarians more interesting.

Don't know what to say about rangers besides more spells, I guess. Fix Favored Power Attack to be one feat not one per racial category? Devoted Tracker would make paladin/ranger combos more interesting. Skirmish FTW! :)

Spirit Shaman needs more spells. He's getting some through the Druid. But, are there any Spirit Shaman specific spells?

Favored Soul has the cleric spell list.

Rogue, not sure what can be done for them. It's in the hands of the module builder to make his skill set useful. EDIT: Well, there are the alternate skill utility ideas Kaedrin posted some time ago.

last edited on 1214326386|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by nicethugbert + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by nicethugbertnicethugbert, 1214321890|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
conan2005conan2005 1214326624|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Rangers could make better use of their favored enemy abilities with feats like Disabling Strike, Foe Specialist or Favored Dodge. And, of course, more spells. Two-weapon rend? Not sure if that's possible. Archery needs some help from OEI.

Rogues and other sneakers have a lot of sneak attack feats from CW and CS that involve tradeoffs of sneak damage for other debilitating effects, but not sure if that's possible, either.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by conan2005conan2005, 1214326624|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214329816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Favored Enemy stuff is either A) buried in the engine or B) would require 20+ versions per actual feat added.

For disabling strike: at best I could do a OnHit power that has to check target type against the appropriate feat. Favored Dodge isn't possible. Foe Specialist isn't really doable or the workaround would be such a hack it's not worth it.

Favored Power attack isn't touchable.

New spells are easily possible (the Talernon spell set has a lot of ranger spells)

Spirit shamans have no spells or feats just for them.

Two weapon rend isn't worthwhile because I can't hook combat events without seriously impacting normal gameplay.

Archery is fine with my crafting fixes. There are some upcoming archery abilities to further improve (Swarm of Arrows, Penetrating Shot) this tactically but the core is good.

last edited on 1214330581|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214329816|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (69.140.96.x) 1214346777|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I second the decision to add Blade Magic to melee characters. Merely clicking an enemy and watching big numbers fly up is not particularly satisfying anymore. Being able to use a variety of abilities x number of times per unit time (where unit time does not equal day) would make encounters more entertaining for the player because it requires more thought, as well as more input.

Now, for a break down on my favorite classes. One thing to note is that I am a WoW fan, and thus most of my thoughts are fueled by the intense PvP that is possible in WoW (and sadly absent in NWN2). Also, I am obsessed with epic levels; most of my input will address issues at high levels.

Barbarian: Clicking rage and watching your character receive an AC debuff because your gear already covers your strength and constitution needs is maddening. There are several epic abilities that would help alleviate this problem (Thundering, Intimidating Rage, etc…), but that still doesn't make them particularly fun to play. Some options I was thinking of would be to capitalize on what makes them different from fighters, namely DR, raging, and heavy hitting. To that end, I feel that abilities tied to rage (i.e. only usable during a rage) should be created (e.g. an ability that temporarily increases the barbarian's DR at the expense of speed while in a rage, or allow all of the barbarians attacks to have 10% knockdown chance while in a rage, or some such). I feel that adding abilities that are a part of the raging experience will help make the barbarian a more entertaining class, as well as differentiate your barbarian from your fighter or ranger.

Druid: Some special abilities while shifting would be cool. Honestly, I check your site everyday praying for the Druid PrCs to be released because they really fix a lot of the druid's playability problems. Being able to do many things makes druids fun to play already, and I never really felt bored playing one, though just like the barbarian, there could be some interesting abilities tied to shapeshifting (or using wildshape in general, but you've already got that covered).

Fighter: Blade Magic would go a long way to solving pretty much all of the problems I face when trying to have fun playing them. Some epic abilities should be conjured up though, just for shiggles.

Rogue: I love the way Rogues play in WoW. Though I doubt that system could be implemented, some of the concepts of a rogue are definitely a cool place to start. Rogues need more utility than just damage through sneak attack because 1) everyone and their cat will take half damage (or no damage if the rogue did not choose Epic Precision) due to itemization, and 2) rogues will never hit anyone because of their horrible BAB progression. Consequently, they are wholly reliant on HiPS in order to try to lower their opponent's dodge AC, provided said opponent doesn't just run away from the sloth-like rogue. It's ultimately a frustrating experience in my opinion. So, I think some cool abilities could be taken from WoW. Spring would be a cool thing to give Rogues as an instant-cast ability; would allow them to actually quickly approach an adversary like a deft ninja! Also, some abilities to handle characters that are immune to their sneak attack: an ability that dazes, stuns, lower other ability scores, sleep, lower saves, etc… These could be added as temporary buffs that can be activated during combat. In addition, would it be possible to add abilities that require you to be invisible (besides sneak attacking), once again to address Rogue utility?

Wizards/Sorcerers/Casters in general: They too suffer from the fire/click-and-forget syndrome. Some instant-abilities that can be used per unit time would allow for casters to really unload in a tough fight (not that any fight is particularly tough for a well prepared caster). One idea I had was a temporary buff that made all spells of 6th level or lower quickened for about 2 rounds (like Improved Alacrity from ToB).

That's all I have for the moment. Hope this dissertation is helpful (or read for that matter!).

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (69.140.96.x), 1214346777|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
sly_1sly_1 1214364954|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I find myself agreeing with a lot of other posters here. Beyond my irrational love of bards and my desire to see them get some love ASAP, I miss special abilities for melee types (not necessarily just fighters).

I really liked the feat "called shot" in nwn1, imo just bringing that back would go a long way to making melee types more fun to play :)

Edit: I'm also starting to develop a favored soul fetish, so any fs oriented prc's would be welcome :)

last edited on 1214365849|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by sly_1 + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by sly_1sly_1, 1214364954|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
steelfiredragonsteelfiredragon 1214384253|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

there is no FS oriented prc.

there are prcs that work well with it, some more than others.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by steelfiredragonsteelfiredragon, 1214384253|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Yume-kunYume-kun 1214388699|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Swiftwing would be a good FS PrC - but it has some … implementation … issues mostly due to its focus, I'd say.

Glorious Servitor (Lost Empies of Faerun) perhaps ?

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Yume-kunYume-kun, 1214388699|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KunikosKunikos 1214547154|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Critical hit and sneak damage builds (rogue, duelist, etc) suck against undead and elementals. Giving them a PrC that would allow such a thing would do wonders to bring them into line with high level wizards and fighters.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KunikosKunikos, 1214547154|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214561752|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Dungeonscape introduces an alternate class feature of "Penetrating Strike" for rogues that is equal to OEI's Epic Precision (the one that allows half damage on all sneak attacks). Rogues give up Trap Sense for this ability. This is such a fundamentally changing feature though I'm not very keen on adding it. Other than this, there are no other ways for rogues to be to sneak enemies without the magic item properties (such as Death's Ruin) or Epic Precision. As for critical hits there is nothing I can do.

last edited on 1214562223|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214561752|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Yume-kunYume-kun 1214580997|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

At the risk of sounding obvious, but wouldn't it be better to resolve the issue of crit-immune critters in equipment rather than class adaptation ?

(ie, have an enchant for death's/elemental/construct's ruin)

Besides, where does one poke a roiling mass of water for that maximum effect ? :D

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Yume-kunYume-kun, 1214580997|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KunikosKunikos 1214628374|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I was thinking a divine-flavored rogue class that involves holy strikes that attack the essense of an undead, or arcane-flavored to strike the essence of the elemental's spirit, etc. Maybe require a level or a couple levels of divine/arcane.

And no, equipment doesn't work for low-magic/low-wealth worlds. You have to rely on your own abilities more.

last edited on 1214628414|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kunikos + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KunikosKunikos, 1214628374|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
sly_1sly_1 1214629182|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

imo a rogue type is supposed to have problems vs certain foes. nwn2 is based on 3.5 ed which is a party based game. no 1 class should be able to do it all, the notion of making a rogue that can sneak attack anything kinda flies in the face of the spirit of the game.

ymmv, of course.

Besides, it's not like rogues can't have str for increased damage. Rogues can also multiclass to gain advantages vs undead or other crit immune foes.

last edited on 1214629246|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by sly_1 + show more
unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by sly_1sly_1, 1214629182|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1214632523|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Kaedrin said:
"Favored Enemy stuff is either A) buried in the engine or B) would require 20+ versions per actual feat added."

Can't you just give Rangers bonus feats and limit the list to the Favored Enemy feats?

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1214632523|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Yume-kunYume-kun 1214633391|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Kunikos, regarding your rogue problem (heh, that sounds weird) - I believe the Skullclan Hunter (on Kaedrin's list even) might be what you're looking for.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Yume-kunYume-kun, 1214633391|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214637745|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Can't you just give Rangers bonus feats and limit the list to the Favored Enemy feats?

My original response was to a request for new favored enemy feats, not the existing ones.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214637745|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1214653896|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

True.
I thought it was about making the favored enemy feats apply to all favored enemies instead of just one as per pnp.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1214653896|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (70.152.25.x) 1214684383|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The Paladin is only useful for a limited number of encounters per day, outside of the NWN2 OC (and it's stupid, stupid resting system) the Paladin can use his abilitys for one encounter before he is basicly no better then a fighter without bonus feats.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (70.152.25.x), 1214684383|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (70.152.25.x) 1214684658|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

This is why the rebalanced Paladin makes smites per encounter (recovered after 10 mins of not doing anything strenuous) and allows Paladins to spend 10 minitues to recover there lay on hands poll a limited number of times per day (increases per level) and gives Paladins abilitys that clerics and fighters don't get on there own (auras for example)

As I said before, I would love for you to get premission and add this as an option (if you could somehow get Paladin only equipment to work for it) or replacement for the Paladin, but that is just me.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (70.152.25.x), 1214684658|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214756845|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I can't add it because it's done by someone on the gleemax forums. I can do my own version but honestly I think Paladins will be borderline overpowered once I'm finished with them as it is.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214756845|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (70.152.25.x) 1214768175|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

hence the get premission bit.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (70.152.25.x), 1214768175|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Yume-kunYume-kun 1214770723|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'd rather stick out what Kaedrin's got brewing for the Paladin - some of the things coming up are rather interesting - not just the PrC's that are in the pipeline, but also the new feats/abilities.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Yume-kunYume-kun, 1214770723|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
Anonymous (71.42.218.x) 1214877926|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

i was wondering if you could you sneak in a paladin prc like fist Of raziel in a little earlier than expected.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by Anonymous (71.42.218.x), 1214877926|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
kreskres 1214883519|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Base class that is the most lacking:
Warlocks, however they are getting much needed help
Bards no they have a lot of new PrC options
Rogues, no way on the "extra damage" vs. undead/elemental. They may suck but that is the choice you made in having a MID-BAB and sneaks to devistate on "the living".
Druids are getting the Nature package
Fav Soul and Spirit Sham are special base classes that would take too much tweaking to make them common place
Pally's ya got them covered
Wizzies well they could use a different option to the EK. NO MYSTIC THUERGE ( so do not try to put words into my post) something along the lines of a high bab arcane trickster
Hexblade when it arrives
Monk need more??? Nah just build em right.
Fighters, due to the excessive feats they gain they are great
Clerics one the most overpowered base classes.
Sorc/bard have enough with RDD special tailored for them

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by kreskres, 1214883519|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Your issues with a base class
KaedrinKaedrin 1214922287|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It's ironic but you left out the Ranger and Barbarian.

Favored Souls and Spirit Shamans are best served by new spells as their base class abilities are fairly set in stone. I can't remember any alternate class features for either of these.

Sorcs/Bards will get Heartwarder for a caster class (medium bab, +5 casting stat so +2 DC to spells and a few bonus spells).

Wizards already get the EK and ASoC so already have a seriously strong set of prcs. The Phantom Knight should solve any remaining need for a arcane melee progression.

unfold Re: Your issues with a base class by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214922287|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
new post
Unless stated otherwise Content of this page is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License