1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

summary:

This thread is for feedback on the first beta of 1.33.

1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1214792683|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Just a status report: The beta is going to be delayed some (a night or two).

As a consolation prize here is a sneaky preview of some dex combatant love coming in Beta 1.

Duelist PrC change: At 7th level duelists gain the PnP Elaborate Parry. This will follow the PnP rules of adding their class level as an AC dodge bonus when Combat Expertise or Improved Combat Expertise is active.

Four new feats:

Martial Study: Clinging Shadow Strike
You make a single melee attack that deals an extra 1d6 damage and the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 11 + your Wis modifier) or suffer a 20% miss chance for all attacks for one round. If the saving throw is made, the target still takes the extra damage. It has a 5 minute cooldown.

Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
You gain +2d6 dice of sneak attack if you already have it or 2 dice of sneak attack if you don't while in this stance.

Shadow Blade
Requires Clinging Shadow Strike, Assassin's Stance
You add your Dex modifier to your attacks instead of Strength while in Assassin's Stance and when using the following weapons: dagger, short sword, and unarmed strike.

Deadly Defense
While wearing light or no armor, using a light weapon which can be finessed, and under the effects of Combat Expertise or Improved Combat Expertise you gain a +1d6 magic damage bonus to your attacks.

last edited on 1220204713|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1214922117|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I misread Strength Draining Strike and missed the fact it needs a pre-existing Shadow Hand maneuver before you can take it. So I've replaced it with Clinging Shadow Strike which has no pre-reqs and qualifies a player for Assassin's Stance (and Shadow Blade).

Also, the interpretation of the Shadow Hand feat is that it adds the dex bonus on top of the strength bonus. I'm still researching this part.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (217.153.145.178) 1214929283|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

worth waiting but pity that shadow blade works only for 2 weapons and unarmed

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1214929394|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That's the weapons the Shadow Hand discipline in Tome of Battle uses that are in the NWN2 engine. Spiked chain, sai, etc are not in the game.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1214954086|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I added one more while I work on it since it won't take any effort to do (as the Duelist addition consumes all the work)

Deadly Defense
While wearing light or no armor, using a light weapon which can be finessed, and under the effects of Combat Expertise or Improved Combat Expertise you gain a +1d6 magic damage bonus to your attacks.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1214955742|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Shadow Blade Type of Feat: Martial Prerequisite: One Shadow Hand stance. Benefit: While you are in the Shadow Hand stance and attack with one of the discipline's preferred weapons (dagger, shortsword, unarmed strike), you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon (in addition to the normal Strength bonus). Use: Automatic

Assassin's Stance Type of Feat: Shadow Hand (Stance) Prerequisite: Prerequisite: One Shadow Hand maneuver Specifics: While you are in this stance, you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it, which deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. If you already have the sneak attack class feature, your existing sneak attack ability deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. Use: Activated <i>As your foe struggles to regain his defensive posture, you line up an exacting strike that hits with superior accuracy and deadly force.</i>

Clinging Shadow Strike Type of Feat: Shadow Hand (Strike) Prerequisite: None. Specifics: As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage, and your opponent must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 11 + your Wis modifier) or suffer a 20% miss chance on all attacks for 1 round. A successful save negates the miss chance, but not the extra damage. This maneuver is a supernatural ability. Use: Activated <i>Your weapon transforms into solid darkness. When it strikes home, it discharges in a swirling orb of shadow that engulfs your foe's eyes.</i>

Deadly Defense Type of Feat: General Prerequisite: Combat Expertise Specifics: Benefit: When using Combat Expertise (or Improved Combat Expertise), you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with any light weapon or with any weapon to which the Weapon Finesse feat applies (such as Rapier). This benefit only applies when you are unarmored or wearing light armor and not using a shield. Special: A fighter can select Deadly Defense as one of his bonus feats. Use: Automatic <i>You are at your most dangerous when forced to protect yourself.</i>

last edited on 1215063125|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215061483|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Elemental Archer is up on NWVault, I'm still working on the feats so they will be Beta 2.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (60.234.195.221) 1215061803|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Out of curiosity,

how does the natural strength bonus to damage, Shadow Blade, Combat Insight and Insightful Strike react to each other?

Do any of them stack? Or if a character had all of the above, would only their highest stat count (and in the case of Combat Insight and Insightful Strike, only count once).

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215063102|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Combat Insight replaces the Strength bonus with an Int bonus (if higher)
Shadow Blade adds the Dex bonus to the normal Str bonus.
Insightful Strike (Swashbuckler) adds the Int bonus to the normal Str bonus (replaced with Int bonus by Combat Insight) and as such they stack (double Int + Dex)

*

Insightful Strike (Swashbuckler) adds the Int bonus on top of the Strength bonus.
Elegant Strike (Champion of Corellon Larethian) adds the Dex bonus on top of the Strength bonus.
These two stack together (Str + Dex + Int)

*

Combat Insight + Insightful Strike stack and would be double Int instead of Str + Int

*

Elegant Strike + Shadow Blade can't stack because Elegant only applies to the longsword, rapier, and scimitar while Shadow Blade only applies to the Dagger, Short Sword, and Unarmed.

*

I think that about covers it?

last edited on 1215090313|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (60.234.195.221) 1215071023|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

What about those feats in relation to ranged combat?

Will all those damage types stack in the same manner with throwing weapons?

Will they apply to the mighty bonus on bows and if so, how many times? Ie. with a mighty +4 bow and both elegant strike and shadow blade, would they gain a +12 to damage or +4? (+12 meaning +4 for Dex twice +4 for Str).

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (77.11.183.228) 1215082102|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

These new feats are a great additon for dex-based fighters but only one modifier should be allowed at a time. Everything else is overkill. E.g.: Common attribute scores for a duelist are: Str: 22 (14+8), Dex: 30 (22+8). Double Dex + Str means: +26 to damage. You do not really want this? Dex-based fighters have several advantages like bonus to saves, several skill bonuses, able to choose Perfect TWF and now they do even more damage than a Str-based fighter. Not a good idea if you ask me…

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215090579|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I updated the stacking rules with the fact Shadow Blade + Elegant Strike can't stack due to only working with different sets of weapons.

Shadow Blade takes 3 feats to get the Dex bonus with 3 weapons. That's a pretty expensive bonus. Dex users don't get a bonus to saves, their skills are only the sneaky ones (which don't affect damage), and Perfect TWF is epic which is already broke balance wise (stacking regen, etc).

Strength based fighters do far more damage because they can pump improved power attack (and the FB bonus as well) for a minor AB hit that is offset by a number of spells or class abilities. This is balanced by multiple attacks in a round which are already broke due to Obs adding +10, 15d6 elemental to weapons.

ONLY Combat Insight works with ranged weapons. Nothing else is usuable by ranged or thrown weapons.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

nicethugbert 1215092759|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The DM can always add these feats to his little puppies.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (77.11.183.228) 1215094804|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"Dex users don't get a bonus to saves…"
They do. Dexterity modifies reflex saves while Str. has no impact on saves.

"Shadow Blade takes 3 feats to get the Dex bonus with 3 weapons. That's a pretty expensive bonus."
Weapon Spec., Greater and Epic Weapon Spec., 3 feats, much smaller bonus

I do not say that everything has to be perfectly balanced and particularly not in a fan made mod. The quality of your custom content is extraordinary.

The Elemental Archer looks very good. I have only one small idea for improvement: BAB 8 is a very steep prerequisite for medium BAB classes like druids and clerics (they are mentioned in the class description). Could you lower this a bit? Lvl. 12 could be a little too late for the OC. Powerful melee classes are much earlier available (WM, Anointed K.).

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215098661|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

+Dex mod on Ref saves. I forgot it was added for that as it's a general part of reflex saves and not a normal +bonus.

***

3 weapon spec feats adds +6 damage. You need a dex of 22+ to exceed this bonus and a fighter can get this without pumping stats. The dex bonus only gets excessive when you have +8 stat bonuses like candy. PnP is balanced around +4 to +6 to stats (the highest bonus in the DMG for a +stat).

An Elf that starts with a 17 base dex (19 due to race) + 5 levelups + 6 (item) = 30
A half-orc that starts with a 17 base str (19 due to race) + 5 levelups + 6 (item) = 30

30 = +10 damage from Dex with Shadow Blade (dagger, short sword, unarmed only).
3 Wpn Specs = +6

4 point difference when min/maxing. 8 points max with a +12 dex item and 2 more levelups into Dex (level 28+). This is with a lower damage weapon with a much lower crit range than a strength user would typically wield.

There is also nothing to stop a strength fighter from taking these as well (using a typical 12-14 base dex + items/spells) for + 4-6 more damage.

The fact that unbalanced items alters the basics of a character is an item balance issue, not a feat balance issue in my opinion.

The PrC classes add the strike bonuses as part of the class so a strength user can benefit even more than a dex user by pumping Dex or Int (naturally or through items/spells and depending on which class ability it is).

***

Elemental Archer is meant to have such a high BAB requirement in order to limit the appeal to Clerics/Druids that want to stack up the damage. Most archery types tend to go high BAB as they have to make their shots count compared to typical melee use. It's oriented more for Rangers/Fighters and the rare rogue than the divines as another way to stack bonuses.

last edited on 1215098780|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (193.218.134.247) 1215212224|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

when can we expect updated Combined PrCs, Feats, and Spells?

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215222653|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm still working on rewriting his spell resistance fix (and testing it) since it strips off ALL of my effects that include spell resistance. Possibly Sunday when I get back in town.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215388339|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Testing Request:

Try the elemental archer's Elemental Storm ability and see if the damage it deals to a target matches your weapon and all buffs/item properties that boost damage.

For example: A longbow with +5 enhance, +1d6 fire damage, and Mighty 4 should be doing d8 + 1d6 fire + 9 piercing.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215394947|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Duelist upgrade isn't going well. So many hard-coded roadblocks it's not funny. I'm working on a work-around for all of it so it's doable but an insane pain in the rear. *sigh*

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Yume-kun 1215424811|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Given the rather acrimonious dispute regarding the duelist and the 'core skill' on the official forums (and the fact that OEI apparently does plan to do something about it sometime) maybe better to focus attention elsewhere on more viable projects ?

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (193.218.134.247) 1215439351|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

2 years have passed since nwn2 release and the game isnt even half patched. no fix because OEI will eventually patch it? maybe in next year or 2? this way no community fixes are needed. this way you can also forget about warlock fixes and many others. heartbeat used for duelist will also be handy in future content.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215455587|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The problem is I need the system behind the duelist fist for any heartbeat style feats. Intuitive Attack, Deadly Defense, Elaborate Parry, Force of Personality, etc.

I'm close to solving it.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215481695|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It's solved for players. I could do companions later if need be but unless specifically requested to do so it's only going to work for players for now.

Tomorrow night I should be putting up a beta 2 with the defensive feats and a small surprise. The forest master will be beta 3 (ie, this will be as many beta's as needed).

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (64.222.115.94) 1215533364|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Kaedrin, your beta 2 plan says, "Swiftblade's Swiftsurge will be losing the non-functional speed buff, Bonus damage capped at 1d6."

I imagine I'm missing something, but the speed buff apears to be working for me (using beta 1), and it really fits the flavor of the class.

Also, I assume the damage boost being reduced to 1d6 is just a balance thing, but, if you don't mind, why did you decide this was necessary?

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215535903|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I've been told that a hasted (50% move buff) and a level 10 swiftsurge (83%) character run at exactly the same speed when tested. Are you saying this isn't the case for you?

In PnP you are supposed to be able to move 5' and get a full attack. Haste is supposed to double your movement. That means that you can move 10' in a round and still get a full attack so the Swiftsurge should add 1d6 to all attacks when hasted (or level 9 when not hasted).

The 2d6 bonus should ONLY apply to a single attack and never to all attacks.

So by default I'll be fixing this to cap the damage bonus at 1d6. I'm still debating adding a cmi_option that allows a player to choose to keep the 2d6 but it's not a valid bonus.

last edited on 1215535936|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (24.218.165.243) 1215545487|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

All I can really say is that I move faster when not hasted, which is quite nice for my bard/swiftblade who can't persist haste (not that I would be high enough level too even if I was a wizard). I imagine the reports you gotten from other people are accurate.

RE: damage bonus

I looked up the class on wizards.com and see what you're saying. I would note that the PnP 9th level ability "perpetual options" allows you to move and make a full attack (minus the bonus attack from haste). Now you may not be able to remove the extra attack, but seeing as PnP perpetual options also allows you to cast two spells in the same round (and move) or a full attack and a spell, there is something on both sides of the scale.

Also several other abilities are better in the PnP version: I would take sudden casting over extended duration, and a percetage targated spell miss chance over low spell resistance; + casting mod to initiative is generally going to be better than +4 (and initative is generally more important in PnP).

Anyway, I really enjoy your mod, and I'm looking forward to the next release regardless of this issue.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

sly_1 1215571791|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

@ Anonymous:

Run this test. Take 2 characters, your swiftblade and any other non swiftblade character. Cast haste on yourself, have the other guy caste haste on himself, make sure you guys don't catch each other in the aoe.

Now race from point a to point b. If the swiftblade wins the race, then there is a speed bonus compared to regular haste. If it is always a tie, there is no speed bonus from the SB class, there is only the speed bonus from haste, which anyone under the effect of haste gets.

Kaedrin isn't removing the base speed bonus you already get from haste, he's removing the bonus speed bonus the class is supposed to get over and above the haste bonus.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (75.68.245.100) 1215573751|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Right, but doesn't the swiftblade speed bonus work even when not hasted? Or am I completely out of it here?

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

sly_1 1215576042|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It's only when under the infuence of a haste spell, afaik

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215578998|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It works even when not hasted and that part isn't changing. What is changing is I'm no longer attempting to increase the run speed while hasted.

The change is to get 33% and 50% run speeds when not hasted at the two speed increase levels. No stacking with haste. Text for the abilities will be clarified to note this.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (60.234.195.221) 1215588097|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Will the Assassin's Stance feat count as a prerequisite for PRCs? I'm mostly asking in respect to the Daggerspell Shaper but there are other class combinations it would help with.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Serpounce 1215609444|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

[same poster as the the two anonymous posts before the very latest one]

RE: speed

Ok it all makes sense now, but too bad it doesn't work, as it seem in the sprit of the class to move super fast.

RE: damage

No thoughts on the merits of perpetual options substituting for the 20' movement requirement for the 2d6 damage bonus? By the time the PnP class gets +2d6 damage it is able to move and make a full attack. That seems like a pretty good reason to give the adapted class the full bonus.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215616793|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Assassin's Stance will not qualify as sneak attack for PrCs because it is a tactical ability that can be turned off.

I'll leave the damage on the swiftblade alone for now and just correct the text related to speed.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215625148|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'll be free this weekend and I plan to knock out the Forest Master, Nature's Warrior, Bone Knight (cut 1), Sentinel of Bharrai, and Dragon Samurai. These are all low-effort PrCs so should be quite doable.

Cut 1 of the Bone Knight will gain the "bonecraft" bonus with all gear (armor, weapons) until the proper crafting changes are made.

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Anonymous (208.71.238.254) 1215698848|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Regarding Swiftblade movement speed not stacking: Any way to give them dm speed? :)

Re: 1.33 Beta 1 Feedback

Kaedrin 1215702776|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

No, none of the DM functionality is exposed which is unfortunate since it has a way to actually set base attributes.