Archery Re-revisited
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started by: conan2005conan2005
on: 1214940348|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
number of posts: 22
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Even with recent improvements, it seems much of the spirit of the craft is missing.
Archery Re-revisited
conan2005conan2005 1214940348|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In the real world, I am a bowhunter and enjoy spending much of my spare time in the forests of Wisconsin observing and photographing wildlife and nature in general. Naturally, I have an affinity toward Rangers. Archery focused Rangers, that is. NWN2 has had it's issues with archery that, thankfully, Kaedrin has addressed with his fletching pack and the upcoming Elemental Archer PrC, and Penetrating Shot and Swarm of Arrows feats. Seems like I'm referring people to your fletching pack weekly. Fighters currently make the best archers with access to GWF, WS, GWS, WM, and epic feats. But, the spirit of the hunter, the wild, and the devotion to the craft are lacking in the existing and upcoming classes, besides the Ranger.

Arcane Archer and Elemental Archer are based on supernatural and spell-like abilities that just don't fit my idea of an archer. Other PrCs, like Deepwoods Sniper, Peerless Archer, and Order of the Bow Initiate have extraordinary abilities more fitting to what I'm looking for (think Rambo), but also have abilities dealing with range and cover that cannot be addressed in NWN2, at the moment. A class that uses skill, precision, and power gained by devotion and practice, instead of necromantic magic and swarms of elemental fury.

My question: What can be done? What extraordinary abilities are possible? Would another custom PrC melding possible abilities interest more than just me? What would need to be fixed by OEI to implement said abilities?

Some of the extraordinary abilities from various PrCs in question:

Deepwoods Sniper

Keen Arrows (Ex) : At 1st level, all projectiles the deepwood sniper fires behave as if they were keen weapons in addition to any other properties they might possess. Thus, a normal arrow fired by a deepwood sniper has a threat range of 19-20 instead of 20. This effect does not stack with any other keen effect .

Concealment Reduction (Ex) : When the deepwood sniper reaches 2nd level, her miss chance against opponents with concealment drops by 10%. Thus, she has a miss chance of 10% rather than 20% against an opponent with one-half concealment . Her miss chance drops by an additional 10% per four deepwood sniper levels she gains thereafter, but this ability never reduces her miss chance against any opponent below 0%.

Projectile Improved Critical (Ex) : When the deepwood sniper reaches 2nd level, the critical damage multipliers of all her projectile weapons increase by +1. Thus, an arrow that normally deals damage x3 on a critical hit instead does damage x4 in her hands. When she reaches 7th level, these critical multipliers increase by an additional +1 .

Take Aim (Ex) : A 4th-level deepwood sniper can gain a +2 bonus on her attack rolls against a stationary target by aiming carefully.Taking aim is a full-round action, and if the target moves more than 5 feet during that period, the bonus is lost. No additional benefit exists for spending more than 1 round aiming. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level.

Order of the Bow Initiate

Ranged Precision (Ex): As a standard action, an initiate may make a single precisely aimed attack with a ranged weapon, dealing an extra 1d8 points of damage if the attack hits. When making a ranged precision attack, an initiate must be within 30 feet of his target. An initiate's ranged precision attack only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits (including undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures) is not vulnerable to a ranged precision attack, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits (such as armor with the fortification special ability) also protects a creature from the extra damage.

Unlike with a rogue's sneak attack, the initiate's target does not have to be flat-footed or denied its Dexterity bonus, but if it is, the initiate's extra precision damage stacks with sneak attack damage. Treat the initiate's ranged precision attack as a sneak attack in all other ways.

The initiate's bonus to damage on ranged precision attacks increases by +1d8 every two levels.

An initiate can only use this ability with a ranged weapon for which he has taken the Weapon Focus feat.

Close Combat Shot (Ex): At 2nd level, an initiate can attack with a ranged weapon while in a threatened square and not provoke an attack of opportunity..

Extended Precision (Su): A 10th-level Order of the Bow initiate's senses and feel for "the shot" become so attuned that he may make ranged precision attacks (and sneak attacks, if he has the ability) at a range of up to 60 feet.

Peerless Archer

Fletching +1-5 (Ex.): Starting at 2nd level you can craft a stack (99) of +1 arrows for 300 gp and 30 xp. Every two levels the quality of arrows improves by +1, but require more gold and experience.

last edited on 1214940705|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by conan2005 + show more
unfold Archery Re-revisited by conan2005conan2005, 1214940348|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214955882|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I tried a fusion of these three and two more a while back and ended up scrapping it. I'll see if I still have the notes. The individual prcs are either extremely weak or worthless in NWN2.

Edit: New description for the Nentyar Hunter is up.

last edited on 1214956375|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more
unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214955882|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
nicethugbertnicethugbert 1214961487|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Caster level for the NH?

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by nicethugbertnicethugbert, 1214961487|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214962077|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Nentyar Hunter level + Druid Level + Cleric Level + Half Ranger level.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214962077|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1214975728|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I don't know what some kind of fusion would be like but as it is written above, the Deepwoods Sniper is something I would be greatly interested in!
No offence intended but that gets me much more excited about Archery than Elemental Archer des.

Now if we were to manage to get an infinite arrow enchantment, Archery would actually become playable.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1214975728|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214978152|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Only Keen Arrows is doable.

last edited on 1214978522|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Kaedrin + show more
unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214978152|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214985109|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Unlimited Ammo (normal) crafting:

OC -> Faint Earth Essence + Curse of Impending Blades (Bard, Wiz/Sorc, Ranger spell)
MotB -> Volatile Earth Essence + Curse of Impending Blades

Adds Unlimited Ammo (normal type) to a ranged weapon.

Thoughts? If PW managers have balance concerns I'll make it available for SP only through a new, optional download.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214985109|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1214986873|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I don't see how it could negatively effect balance at all. It's only impact is to save money.

As it stands now, ranged characters are punished for choosing that combat style while all others aren't - it only serves to preserve balance and is a much appreciated fix.

A better fix would be to make the same enchantment available for the ammunition and not the bow. That way an archer could still bypass DR with your crafted ammunition and not have to spend the duration of their gametime grinding out cash/resources and crafting endless stacks of ammo just to do a bit of damage for a few rounds.

If possible, the same could benefit throwers also.

Ammunition worries is the main reason throwers/archers aren't viable characters, this change would fix that far more significantly than any feats or PRCs you could implement. Just try playing a high levelled thrower/archer for an hour or so, each encounter eats up multiple stacks of ammunition and stopping to grind up some resources and then craft up more ammo every few minutes is a horrible way to play. This fix is more deserved on a PW than single player. At least if you aren't into masochism you can at least cheat up some resources.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1214986873|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214987263|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

It can't be done for the ammo, only the launcher. Which is why I'm not very keen on adding unlimited adamantine arrows (especially since you can craft up to 5 stacks at a time from a single attempt, selectable by the cmi_options.2da).

Since any enchantment on the bow (elemental damage, enhance) is passed on to the arrows your better off enchanting the bow than arrows. That just leaves the material based ammos and being able to bypass any DR at whim and without limit is too strong.

I don't believe unlimited ammo will work for thrown weapons which means there's nothing I can do for them. I'll check but I'm pretty sure that's what I figured out last time.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214987263|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1214989694|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"That just leaves the material based ammos and being able to bypass any DR at whim and without limit is too strong."

I'm not sure I understand this… Everyone that isn't an Archer/Thrower can already bypass DR at a whim. Archers are weak because they have been nerfed in that very way. Unnerfing them doesn't make them too strong, it makes them unnerfed.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1214989694|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1214992895|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ranged weapons can be used from a distance, even in NWN2, which means you can be hasted and run/plink a target to death with no repercussions. That's not true of melee. Add Rapid shot for more attacks than melee's get and you actually overpower ranged combat compared to melee combat. You can't be touched, no risk, and better damage. That is too strong. Archery in NWN2 and PnP is a red-headed stepchild compared to melee.

Unlimited Ammo doesn't even exist in PnP (a single warforged ability to generate bolts exists) and that's a basic bolt.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1214992895|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
steelfiredragonsteelfiredragon 1214993012|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

love rangers, however in any game, i can never getr off more than 2 shots…..

anyway, imo the deepwood sniper is the most lethal of the archery prcs, only due to its range, hehe i get three off before yer second is nocked….

however there is one more prc out there that deals with archery.

the bad news is that it is another elf blood only prc, its better that that trash that is the arcane archer.

its in the champions of ruin.
justice or wielder of something or other.

if it had a spell list, its not doable, a prc modified from that prc( without the racial restriction and spell list) might work….. or not.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by steelfiredragonsteelfiredragon, 1214993012|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
conan2005conan2005 1215005995|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So out of the abilities listed Keen Arrows is the only one possible?

I have never found lack of arrows to be a problem. Sure, I've run out a time or two, but that was bad planning on my part. Between drops and crafted arrows, one should never run out in the official campaigns, at least. Unlimited ammo bows are usually worthless to me because I like switching arrows to match the challenge (fire for undead, ice for fire giants, yada, yada, yada). They usually get sold or handed off to companions.

As for archers running around plinking away with no repercussion, that's not really true, especially playing with TonyK's AI. If you are continually doing high damage the enemies will focus on stopping you en masse. Outdoors it is possible to avoid melee with an archer, but that is what they do.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by conan2005conan2005, 1215005995|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
nicethugbertnicethugbert 1215009250|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Spellcasters can stay out of combat and bypass DR. Although they cannot not cast while moving thy do considerable damage from the safety of their meat shields.

I've never been able to play an archer and stay out of combat for long. Running around an area tends to just draw more attackers, and, your firing rate is cut in half, at least.

Hit'n'run doesn't really work in this game, without skirmish. Even then your not going to avoid swings very well.

It just doesn't compare to a high AC melee toon.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by nicethugbertnicethugbert, 1215009250|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (60.234.195.x) 1215061472|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

"Ranged weapons can be used from a distance, even in NWN2, which means you can be hasted and run/plink a target to death with no repercussions. That's not true of melee. Add Rapid shot for more attacks than melee's get and you actually overpower ranged combat compared to melee combat. You can't be touched, no risk, and better damage. That is too strong. Archery in NWN2 and PnP is a red-headed stepchild compared to melee."

I don't have much experience kiting in NWN2 - I tend to either spend the entire time running and not getting off an attack, or aggro everything the game has to offer, so naturally I avoid it.

The difference between melee and ranged is melee don't have to try kiting. They can stand toe to toe and expect to survive. A Ranged character typically has less AC and can't kill the enemy as fast so they take more damage. That is completely ignoring any attacks of opportunity.

I don't know how you think Ranged does more damage than melee because it is simply untrue - even if they had unlimited arrows that bypassed DR, melee would still outdamage them every time. With all things being equal, ranged lose due to having to rely on multiple combat stats to both hit their target and increase their damage, melee does not have that problem.

It would take some pretty significant tweaks to make ranged combat stronger than melee, or at least equal to melee. I'm not asking for that, I'm just asking for ranged combat to be both competetive and fun. As it stands, they fail in both regards.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (60.234.195.x), 1215061472|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (207.192.229.x) 1215221385|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

quick question, since Kaedrin touched on the ammo issues and creating them.

rather than try to enchant ammo, is there a way you could make a crafting recipe that would allow you to craft the arrow much the same way you craft the cold iron, etc arrows?

that way you aren't trying to enchant them, but you can easily choose the arrow you want when you want it.

if so, I think it would be great to add those recipes. I might try doing something like it myself tonight and let you know how it goes.

NateM

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (207.192.229.x), 1215221385|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1215222272|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You can already add an elemental damage enchantment to a ranged weapon and it will automatically transfer through to any arrows fired.

If you enchant a bow with +5 enchance, +1d6 Cold damage and use cold iron arrows: they will be +5 ab, +5 damage, +1d6 cold damage, cold-iron arrows.

Are you asking for ammo crafting that would make iron + 1d6 cold damage? That would be 4-5 elements * every material (6?) * every weapon (8?) in new recipes/molds.

I'll be adding the normal iron material unlimited arrow enchant as part of the next push.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1215222272|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (71.31.194.x) 1215302684|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

yes I was, but I saw how big of a task that would be for you.

Thing is, say I'm fighting something that is immune to fire, and I've got a fire enchantment on my bow, along with an enhancement enchant, and it's duskwood so it's got mighty on it.

in the above example would I be able to just shoot frost arrows? and what if the fire enchant on my bow actually healed said monster(don't know if it's possible)

that's the angle I'm coming from.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (71.31.194.x), 1215302684|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (207.192.229.x) 1215913000|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

well I went through and made them for the arrows (don't have a character that uses crossbows or any of the other stuff yet)

just made the recipe based off your current recipes for arrows but added using a feint essence for the element type you'd want and upping the skill needed to make it by a few points, seems to work ok for now, but I need to play through the campaign with it to see if its too powerful/weak

NateM

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (207.192.229.x), 1215913000|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
Anonymous (207.192.229.x) 1216592253|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Did some more testing last night, and I don't know if it's the changes you made to allow bows to be enchanted or something brought about by MotB but you can enchant arrows now using regular recipes.

I'm using your mod pack, with reerons spells, and tonyk's ai, and that's it.

Last night I made myself some nice arrows, 1d6 fire/frost/lightning damage

this is using default enchanting recipes

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by Anonymous (207.192.229.x), 1216592253|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
KaedrinKaedrin 1216593028|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I believe this is the normal behavior of NWN2 though it's been long enough since I did my crafting alterations I'm not completely sure about that. ;)

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by KaedrinKaedrin, 1216593028|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
Re: Archery Re-revisited
gui_willgui_will 1216657537|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hey kaedrin, about the deepwoods sniper, which seems to be bloody awesome, why only the keen arrows are possible? Doesn't the improved critical thing already exist for the Weapon master? I can see that the concealment and the aiming might be impossible, but we could trade those for some other things with the same flavor…

Just asking, cause ti seems like a really nice prc for ranged combat.

unfold Re: Archery Re-revisited by gui_willgui_will, 1216657537|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover
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